July 23, 2017 at 8:09 pm #3710
Here is my situation. My grandfather is in a nursing home and has run out of money to pay for his stay there. We now have to sell his assets which are left. These assets (land) were donated to his kids (My father and his siblings) but a usufruct was setup for him.
A lawyer has told us that our only options are to purchase the land at the cost of the usufruct which he is 86 years of age so it would be 0.33764% or our other option is to allow Medicaid to sell the land for us.
My question is if Medicaid sells the land, do they keep 100% of the proceeds or do they only keep the 33% of the usufruct and the rest split between my father’s estate (my father passed away so this is me and my siblings).
My grandfather is no longer in a state to decide on anything (Alzheimer’s) so getting him to agree to cancel the usufruct is not an option.
I am open to any suggestions or info that you can provide.
Help me OBI WAN You’re my only hope!!!
July 23, 2017 at 9:17 pm #3711
First things first. Was the donation done outside the look-back period? Is that why the usufruct he reserved is being counted -and I assume the usufruct value is being counted as income to him.
Is this correct so far?
July 24, 2017 at 8:38 am #3712
Yes, this land was donated well over 10 years ago but no one realized he had usufruct over the land until this point.
Thank you for your reply.
July 26, 2017 at 11:26 am #3715
Any further input that any of you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
July 28, 2017 at 2:11 pm #3716
Medicaid kind of operates in a world of it’s own. We have had to get almost to the courthouse steps over disagreements about things that should be obvious.
Anyway, for starters I don’t know where .33% or so is coming from for someone 86 years old. It should be more like .133 as a usufruct value.
Medicaid, I don’t think, is ever going to be in the position of selling someone’s house for them -they just don’t do that.
Typically they count some arbitrary amount as the “value” of a usufruct as being like rental value. If you have the usufruct of something in Louisiana, that gives you the power to rent and receive the income from that property. Medicaid therefore would say that if you have the usufruct of something that could rent for $1,200 a month, then we are going to count $1,200 against the annual income you are allowed to have. It doesn’t matter whether you are actually getting that much or even trying to rent -or whether it the real world the particular property could even be rented.
We have had arguments with Medicaid on this very issue when, believe it or not, they took the position that a usufruct of a condemned house had rental value. In actual fact, it would be illegal to try and rent a condemned house, so by any reasonable line of thinking the usufruct value would be zero. We eventually prevailed, but it took months.
August 1, 2017 at 9:51 am #3718
The chart above is what we were given as the usufruct guide on how much we would owe.
I consulted a local lawyer (Lafayette) and they agreed that we must have all of the land appraised and then take that value to figure out what his usufruct value currently is. That value must be collected and used before he can qualify for Medicaid.
If you have a different way to figure out how we can get out of this situation I am all ears.
August 1, 2017 at 11:51 am #3719
The usufruct value chart I was referring to is the way Louisiana calculated the value of the usufruct for inheritance tax purposes (back when we had an inheritance tax). It was, and still is, the way lawyers in Louisiana figure out what usufruct and naked values are worth. Someone 86 would have about a .133 value for their usufruct. Since the average life expectancy is about 82, even .133 was generous.
Going by the Medicaid chart link you provided, it gives the equivalent .133 value from the LA inheritance value chart for someone 86 and says no, that is the value for someone 107 years old. It gets absurd if you try to picture all the 107 year-olds running around who would still have any usufruct value, much less over 10 percent.
So, it is what it is: an extremely unfair and unrealistic value that Medicaid uses to come up with a value for an asset. I guess I’m not surprised.
August 25, 2017 at 11:18 am #3746Old man of the seaParticipant
Sir…I fully understand your situation and your concerns because I am deeply into it myself.
My almost dead Mother does not qualify for Medicaid because she draws a little retirement over the State limits….So we keep her at home in her nice little paid off home under hospice care and take turns 24/7 caring for her….
This situation has been drawing out for over a year now and is very demanding on me, but in the long term it is better because it will preserve her assets and keep the State out of the picture, and she receives instant personal care from family and friends…..It is a sad fact of Life today to witness an old person lose everything they struggled to work for and attempted to preserve for their children to a nursing home or the State.
And nursing home care at it’s best is neglectful and sometimes inhuman…I KNOW these things.
Perhaps it would be best if you and your family meet and attempt to agree how the whole of you can provide for his care with the help of hospice and the church, and in that fashion provide better care and preserve his property for his heirs.
Medicaid is a very complex program and it often provides for folks from cradle to grave, but it is in many cases not fully necessary.
Good luck to you, and please honor him as he is a member of this countries Great Generation.
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